[L]: On the couch I see a book from the library titled ‘Asemic Writing’ from Peter Schwenger. It’s covered in post-it’s.

[G]: Actually it’s quite recent that I started borrowing books, I never did
it. I also try to use more aaarg.
The thing is, I borrowed a few books and... look at this one... for example. I just know that I’m gonna look and relook and relook in it so I really like to have my own copy. This one I found by accident. It was one of the new books in the library so I was really happy to... be the first one... to borrow it.
I was telling Dasha, a good friend of mine, I have the book collection of
an old man, like a lot of references in this book I already have here or read. There’s a web of books I have in a very particular field, when you find some-thing that completes it, or fits in that network you just want to have it. I very instinctively find these things. I was watching this video the other day that described the feeling of falling in love. And I really have that when I find a particular book. I have this rush, this feeling ‘It’s just.. I need you...’ A lot of books I buy without even opening them, wrapped in a plastic.
I have to get it because of the title, the touch or I don’t know, something about them and then I open it at home and it’s : YES! and I really have this rush!
Sometimes it’s that you read a book, and there’s this one sentence about something else, very anecdotic in this particular book but for some reason you’re like, I really want to find this out. And then the next moment in another book you’re like: “But this is exactly what I wanted to find out!’ But I’m not sure... maybe it’s because I’m bathing in it so much that it seems really instinctive and coincidental but I’m not sure how much of a coincidence it is, because I looked at this book because I was talking to a friend that was doing asemic drawing. And then I saw this book and I was like; ‘Oh, asemic, I heard that last week.”

[L]: What is asemic?

[G]: It’s writing without.. like there are a lot of examples in this book.
Basicly, it’s when you write, so no drawing, but you write, but it’s not
about signifying but the nature itself of writing. Now I’m reading Michaux , and he talks about the negative space, about inflection, how you see that certain symbols have more of an interieur nerve and some more external.. so it gives you the feeling of a text but isn’t really one... that actual-ly signifies something. Here. I was reading essay’s by Roland Barthes. His bigger Volumes I find heavy to read in one go. You can see the different ways I treat my books. This book I’ve been reading for like, a year. And I’m just going back and forth and I haven’t finished it. I can not get to the end because I really like it, I don’t want to get to the end.

[L]: Is it important for you to finish a book? Ever?[G] No. I have like twenty books I’m halfway through.
No.
And so like, at some point I just found this book from Roland Barthes that was called Cy Twombly. I was just like: ‘ Ah, this is a small book, looks nice, bla bla bla,.’ And I read about and I think... this really makes me think about
someone.... and in fact I had seen his exhibition in the Centre Pompidou
but I forgot his name because I’m really bad with names, but the way he
described the work and stuff, Cy twombly does a lot of asemic writing.
And now in this book he’s coming back.
I letterly just picked up that book... because... because. And it’s really weird but it all comes back.
And at that point I just really enjoyed the text but it didn’t really mean
something to me, and now suddenly it’s very relevant again.

[L]: Would you call yourself a collector? Do you think you will become a collector? Or will it deve-lop intuitively...like it has been developing..

[G]: I think I am already a col-lector.

[L]: Yeah?

[G]: Yeah..

[L]: So, it matters if something is rare?

[G]: It doesn’t matter but it’s gonna make me want it more.
Because by buying it is then the only way I can access it...
Like in my logic..

[L]: So there has to be a logic of value? That is a bit different then being in love.

[G]: It’s accesability. I really like.. to have it, like physically. To be able to comeback and browse through it. But the thing is.. that can be as much with a really cheap book that I just don’t know if I’m ever gonna come across with it again as with something that is more expensive. But just the more expensive ones I have to think more about it..
But it doesn’t change..

[L]: Before the artist books, would you also call yourself a collector? No?

[G]: No.. I was more a book-wurm.
But it developed.. It’s just for example Jonas Mekas.
That’s also for me an encounter.
I found the first one, the small white one, in the eye (film-museum). And it just.. my favourite book ever. Physically, to hold... It’s amazing. It’s like a newspaper but in a book. And I just bought it because of that and it turned out to be an amazing read.
And I met Jonas Mekas and I was really happy about it. And then I
bought the two other ones that came out with his works. But I haven’t had time to read them.
Then I bought also these two, I know what’s in there, I’ve seen it and I’ve seen it at another friend etc. but I haven’t opened my own copies and I bought the first one because of the second one but I didn’t buy the third one.. because I didn’t like it, so maybe in that sense I am not a collector.
I really like the publications of Charles Bukowski so I bought them all. And I almost read them all but like..

[L]: Your father didn’t have them already?

[G]: No. Or at least not that I know.
And these are cheap, like, they’re not really...
It’s just I really like this publication. The covers are really nice.
But I’m more of an intuïtive collector. It’s not that I want to have a particular serie. It’s like... for me this makes sense together.

[L]: Are all these your books?

[G]: Yeah.Not the ones here. These are my brothers. And you can see also. He’s way more.. I browse like into my mom’s and his.. but I don’t really like museumbooks and stuff.

[L]: Do you get irritated by having the books of your brother here that
you don’t like?

[G]: No. It’s more like there’s to many things overall in here.
And I can not really curate it be-cause I can not, you know, sort out
things that are not mine...
I actually brought a lot in the attic.
Which was a big dilemma because it’s not the best for books.
I think there’s more up-stairs.. these are all like study books...
Like over there it’s all mathe-matics...

[L]: Your father doesn’t miss his books? How does he feel about his
books being scattered in all these different appartments?

[G]: Sometimes when he comes here he pick’s up some things.
He know’s what’s here.
But it’s not that he needs it immediately. He doesn’t really have a choice! Like.. Because I think this would not fit.

[L]: Do you sit here a lot?

[G]: I actually have a couch only since recently. The table was first here, then I put it here, then here, and now I put it here. But that’s very new. And.. actually I really don’t see it anymore.
I do not see anything in this room.

[L]: Really?

[G]: Yeah.. I have focus points. When people come I’m talking about it but I forget completely that it’s here.

[L]: That’s strange with books.

[G]: They’re the walls.
I don’t really notice it any more.

[L]: And is it different with the books next to your bed or is it the same?

[G] The books next to my bed,
I really see them.

[L]: Oke. Let’s go there.

[G]: Actually a few days ago I was wondering : Am I still reading all these things? Because yeah, I have so many... Most of those back there I have read. But this, my mother bought for me, I never travelled with it.
But she bought for my brother and I one of these, to use when we travel.

[L]: How does it work?

[G]: It’s like a shelve.

[L]: You can fold it in?

[G]: Ya. She found it in an antiqueshop. My brother has a more gothic one. It’s super nice but we had to laugh so hard when she gave it to us...

[L]: To travel and take a shelve of books.

[G]: It ended up here, which is perfect, on top of the first piece of furniture I made.
For really long I would just have these

[L]: Stacks.

[G]: and I still do it..
I really like to have books next to my bed.

[L]: How does it work, stack-ing books?

[G]: Sometimes I just do it by size, when it becomes to chao-tic. But it’s mostly by what I’m reading or not at the moment, or what I want to read. So it’s the same with the shelves. What is behind, mostly are books I read. And in front are things I want to read or the ones I pick up often. My brother is very much, he has his system that is A-Z, fiction / nonfiction. Yeah, it’s very strict. I just know where things are by association. My books have very different sizes so I can not always afford to sys-temize. I know where is what.
I think if I had proper shelves I would have more of a system.
Now it’s really about space management. And stacking actually takes less space.

[L]: Are things a bit organised on language?

[G]: No, it’s more on author.
My dad has a lot of Dutch books obviously, so in the livingroom his shelves are more Dutch. My brother and I have more French and English.
And here he has a lot of Chinese, because he did Chinese studies.
In that sense it is... but it’s like practical, it’s not really meant.
I try to keep track of books I lend out. Sometimes I’m also just picking through my books because I’m checking.. do I still have this book here?

[L]: What happens when you have guests over, they start pulling out books?

[G]: Depends who. People that come here regularly do not do it as much as people that come here for the first time. Taking out things all the time.The worst is when I start wanting to show things to people.
Because then I pull out all the books that I think they will like and then it doesn’t stop.
That’s the most chaotic actual-ly, when I start doing that.

[L]: But that’s nice right, to go through your private library for someone else.

[G]: Oh, it’s super nice. I real-ly do that, when someone comes, then I’m like, these are all the books you’re gonna like, I’ll make their selection, kind of. That I find really exciting always. But sometimes I also refrain from doing it because certain books I don’t want to lend out. And then it’s a bit tricky if I show them and then do not want to lend them out..
But I don’t have that with so many books. More also because I don’t like going after people to get it back.

[L]: Are there specific people that you exchange books with?

[G]: At the moment I lend out a lot of books to Juliette, because she’s French. I got really excited when she asked me for a nice book to relaxe
or whatever. Otherwise.. Loic a lot. I also gave them books from my dad, but I don’t re-member which ones..
I have to find this out...
I gave a few books to Sena I think..I don’t have so many people I lend out to.
I think I have a natural book relation with Loic because they gave me so many references.. They basicly lend me only a few books but they kept
on sending me pdf’s and this and that.. That was a nice exchange. Actually, most of the times it’s more me wanting them to look at them.
But the other way around...

[G]: But my brother is even worse. His books are more expensive. He
has a lot of beautiful japanese bindings. He studied in Leiden, then he wen’t to Oxford and now he’s in Beijing. And in China he buys even more. They have apps for every thing! He’s on one of these apps that is like for young artists and he keeps on sending me things: What do you think of this? And that? He just keeps accumulating, and that’s his hobby, that’s his down time. He just has huge amount of pur-chases all the time. I’m thinking a bit more about what I purchase... Not that I don’t do it. He buys also for me, what he thinks I find inte-resting.

[L]: My father is a record collector but that makes me. Like I wouldn’t start collecting records. I could never keep up with him.
Do you have this?

[G]: Oh we have a lot of vinyl in the living room.

[L] No, but does it never hold you back to buy more books, the fact that your parents and brother already have so many books?

[G]: I think it could have before I started doing bookbinding. Maybe.
But my brother gave me this excuse when I was doubting. He said: 'Yeah, but it is a reference for your work!’
The thing is, we all buy a lot of books and maybe they do com-plete each other, but we all have different specialties. My dad and I have a lot of interests in common but he’s way more sound and I’m more words I would say.
But one time out of two I call him and say: ‘Ah, I just discovered this
thing!’ and then he has it. So I always ask him first to check if he has a reference or if he has it.
And sometimes it’s my dad borrowing books from me. My mom buys me like medieval books and stuff. Like, she’s way more into this kind of historical stuff. Like she bought this book about unicorns. The books she gives me are not things I would spon-taneously read, like
this one: ‘An afternoon at the antiqueshop’, ‘Letter to a hostage’,
‘Literature for the stomach’.
She has like a really old fashion way.. to knowledge.. in general, but still very raw and nice.
This is all from the box she bought me. I don’t know why she was so
enthousiastic in that shop, pro-bably got along with the shop’s person. That’s often how it works. If someone is nice to my mom and gives time to her, she’s gonna buy from you. She’s a very good customer.

[L]: With you that doesn’t work?

[G]: I used to be that person... I hated.. I didn’t want people to talk to me. I was very shy, like let me do my thing. Maybe that’s why I like books. No, haha. And now I have more... sometimes I’m gonna ask. Sometimes you have a really nice moment talking about a book.

[L]: Do you stay in a shop untill you find something to buy?

[G]: No. Sometimes I’m in a really good mood and I just want to look at books and I come across a book and that’s it and sometimes I’m in that mood that is dangerous and then I want to buy everything.
But sometimes I just want to go around and I can not find any-thing.
Yes, it’s about my mood. Sometimes you’re just open for everything and sometimes nothing comes to you because actually you don’t really pay attention too it.
I think if you really pay attention to a thing you’ll always find some-thing interesting about it.

[L]: What are the books you took to Estonia?

[G]: That’s a good question.. to Estonia... I brought there.... and the books I bought there also!
I briefly started learning Estonian so I also had some things to learn
Estonian.
...Uhhh... It’s not here....

[L]: Where did you find this book?

[G]: In Lugemik, it’s like the San Seriffe from Talinn. Oke. These once I bought there, but I didn’t read. These ones I have
read.

[L]: What is this?

[G]: A book I bought in San Seriffe. It’s really nice. I was a bit sceptical
about it, really. I really like the book itself. I mean it’s quite... you see it
in the bookshelf. I had seen somewhere that it had to do with
collaboration. But I was a bit afraid, sometimes, I don’t know why, it’s
just the lexicon but... I was afraid it had a bit to much this like nature
artzy vibe. And it’s actually very much about collaboration as like
innovation. It’s basically a collection of projects people have done, that
have more or less a collaborative aspect, they do have an environ-mental awareness but it’s not cheesy. There was this sentence in the start that really spoke to me so I read like five times the intro before I actually read the whole book.
Ohja: ‘On another level, artist’s emphasis and interest in archival material can be seen as a call to flee from taste. The legitimation of to a certain social class and take shelter in the function of an organ memory.’ I could really relate to that. I think I do that a lot.
I always kind of like put my taste in a practical categorie. I don’t like to
be aware of an esthetique. Obviously we all have one, that is more or less spontaneous. It was really nice to read this as a nice cute read.

[L]: Are there also a lot of bag’s in the house, with books you took with you somewhere?

[G]: I have a lot of wrappings.
It’s not bags but it’s wrappings.
Actually yesterday I took out these two from their wrapping.
This one, I opened it only recently and I have it since five years. The
story of art. I just really like this paper around it, I don’t want to take it
out.

Gersande Schellinx
09-01-21

[L]: You lost your harddrive.

[G]: My laptop. Yes, the harddrive on my laptop.

[L]: In there, on the harddrive, can you stumble back on things like that?

[G]: I look up a lot of things. I have to be really carefull.. Actually, last week I bought a lot of things because I was looking for this. So I was buying all these related books. I try not to do it because I already buy a lot.. I love to do it physical-ly. It’s really the encounter with the book, also.

[L]: But now you can't.

[G]: Online is even more dangerous.
You write asemic and you see everything that is related to it. But then, I do have sometimes that I don’t really know what I’m ordering. You get a book and you think: What is this?
So I feel less confident if I don’t know what I’m buying online. I had that a few times. This book Jasper told me: ‘You should look this up. It’s a really difficult
book to find. It has this asemic writing.’

[L]: Ah yes. It’s in the library.

[G]: It was a bit expensive but I didn’t realise.. Then I received this huge book. And it’s a beautifull book. I bought this now four years ago and it comes back in all these studies for obvious reasons. But it’s this huge book and I just had no idea! I just thought.. I’m gonna get it,
whatever, it’s a nice thing to have.
And here comes this huge...
When I was doing philosophy I would look up a book and order by mistake a study of the book. Like this kind of things happen a lot to me.
But then you come across also nice studies. That would be also really
funny, I would be looking up Karl Marx but then I would get...
Not what I was looking for.
Sorry we completely drifted!

[L]: No, no.

[G]: I really have this rush.. I don’t know it’s this irrational thing of: ‘I need it.’
It’s completely an addiction.
I have to be really aware. Because also, like I said, I became financially
independent and suddenly I could afford any books!
And that really created like..
Also before Rietveld I had a very poor social life. Like I had zero.. I knew no one in Amsterdam.
So that was my thing, I would go out and go to all the bookmarkets and all the bookshops and I felt really like...
It was like having a social moment.
I developed in my young adult life a really irrational relationship to like books.
I think.